Having become members and understanding the idea behind this attempt, a idea that has been circling is to broaden this project to include other Traditional Christians, thus making the project not Orthodox only, but inclusive of other Christian groups, where each camp would have their own space to network and work for themselves, yet on a larger scale we all work together for the benefit of the Generic 'Christian' Civilization.
Benefit would be much quicker and faster growth, the downside would be loosing our own unique space and unique movement, while also having to water down our requirements to be more inclusive of heretical ideas and beliefs.
I personally would like to only keep it Orthodox, however as we all know, we are few and far between.
What are you thoughts? please have a say, this is only generic brainstorming session.
Would like everyone's opinions.
With all due respect, I personally disagree very strongly with this idea. This must remain an Orthodox group - in my view, the heterodox/heretics, and protestantism, in particular, are very much responsible for the current state of decay of tradition and values in the West. We can view and treat people from other religions with respect, and we can cooperate with them in society to a certain extent. For example, I very much like the idea of an Orthodox/Muslim alliance against the aggression of liberal secular atheism, etc. However, this group seems to me a very good thing, and it has much potential ONLY if it remains Orthodox. We need to speak openly and clearly about how to strengthen our Faith and our families, how to build a community/society around the Church - which means basing our lives on the Mysteries of the Church, reading the Lives of the Saints, and the Church Fathers, praying to the Mother of God... in short, things we can absolutely NOT do with protestants of various denomination. We will only waste time with internal squabbles about the primacy of the Pope, or what baptism means, or the old faith and works debate... we will end up descending into internal strife and ultimately end up carrying on apologetic debates within the Brotherhood, which is not productive. We cannot build a group with people that are opposed to our salvation in the One Holy Apostolic Church. This brotherhood will mean nothing if we cannot invite one another, without reservation, to take pilgrimages to monasteries, to receive Communion together in our Churches, to raise our children in the One True Faith - to be Orthodox. For what it is worth, I am very excited about the potential of this Brotherhood. But if the doors are opened to people outside of Orthodoxy, in the name of an ecumenical "generic Christian civilization" then I will personally be forced to terminate my membership in this group.
I would have to say that including other "christian groups" in this project would lessen the potential impact on society that we could have. I think that opening it to other groups or sects will be a detriment as a whole and that we as a faith would lessen or dilute our own strength for the heresy of ecumenism in my opinion is ridiculous. Please forgive me brothers, but associating this project with heretics/schismatics and heterodox is like lashing our wagon the devil. When I think of all of the things that are wrong in society that we are working to overcome, most of them can be traced to the protestant churches or liberal ideologies that they seem to spout about ecumenism and the acceptance of immoral behaviors. This is due to their belief that the "church" needs to change to fit the societies that they find themselves. This is not the case with Orthodoxy, as we are unchanging and we keep the same traditions taught to us by the fathers.
While like most of my brothers here will pray for those around us and that one day that we will all share the same faith, but that is not the case now. We pray that the light of Orthodoxy shines as a beacon of God's love here on Earth and those in heresy see the errors of their ways. But until that day, we have to protect our faith and Holy Traditions. We have a closed communion for a reason, and it is to protect the body and the blood of our Lord from those that don't share our same faith or beliefs. I believe this is true with this project as well. Since most of us have at least an initial understanding of what it means to be an Orthodox Christian, we would never share these same experiences and understandings with the heterodox communities that are all around us.
When talking with those in heresy, it is like the tree telling the the leaves about what the trunk and the roots are like. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is the trunk and the roots, while the protestants are the leaves on the outer fringes. Most of these groups and sects are only Christian in name only, and most do not hold any understanding of Holy Tradition or dogma. We have a LOT to lose if we ever associate with them.
Brothers, please forgive me, but if this project were to move in that direction, I would have to leave and disassociate myself with it. While I love the idea of the Project and the potential for the impact that this group could have on society as a whole, I believe that including other Christian sects is not the way to do that. We should pray for them, and we should work in areas that we see some commonality in our approach. But having them as part of this group is something that I would pray that most, if not all members would reject as a bad idea.
I appreciate that the idea was brought to us to discuss prior to having it being dropped on us, so thank you for that. I believe like most here that having an open and honest dialogue is the only way that we will grow as a group. I would strongly urge all involved that we not open our group to heretics.
Asking for forgiveness from all of my brothers that I might have offended by this post.
Thanks gents, this was just an 'out there' question. Don't stress there is no any potential of this being broadening up at all, I understand it will immediately loose it's potency which is what I don't want. But it has been suggested by others so I wanted to see what everyone's thoughts are as ultimately this is a group effort. Other group's all have fraternities, we need our own also. God bless
Nicholas,- I believe that's our administrator, right?, I would agree in general with the other brotherhood members that the essence of this group needs to be the Orthodox Church, its support&defense however &wherever needed. It may be possible to form some outside ''friends of Orthodox'' group but as others said, the efficiency of this group depends on our common basic worldview and irrevocable commitment to seeing it realized.After all a brotherhood shares a common Father and Mother, God&Church to whom they render honor &obedience. The commitment to support and defend each other&each Orthodox Christian in need might come into conflict with any commitments by which heterodox may already feel obligated.Also there are existing Orthodox brotherhoods whose alliance we might seek to expand the group's efficacy and reach, since brotherhood tradition is reviving everywhere in the Orthodox world, mostly with a focus on traditionalism and masculine self-improvement in forgotten ways, customs, and arts for constructing chapter by chapter an Orthodox, independent, stable community foundation& environment conducive to keeping out the subversive influence of the world and thriving in the Faith.Some are monastic, some family men, some individuals who want to serve but haven't established themselves yet, each member bringing his talents and goodwill to the group, stronger in united brotherhood .We might explore the benefit of confederation with them. Also traditionally brotherhoods undertake the obligation to labor for public education and organization of the laity in Orthodox faith&life and to bring in new members as possible, for whose reliable commitment they can &do solemnly vouch. Some opening food for thought and discussion.
In Christ
Ian (John Damascene)Watts
ROCOR
One of the things that I have done over the last few years has been to get involved with chivalric groups, and more specifically those with an Orthodox connection. One of the things that I have admired has been groups like the "Knights of Columbus" that are associated with the Roman Catholic Church here in North America. They do a lot of great things for the churches that members belong to, and I see that this Brotherhood Project is focused on many of the same areas.
I have heard that there has been some small groups that have formed around the Greece or Constantinople, but those are limited in scope and acceptance. I believe that their limited size is also an issue and that belonging to them is more of a honor and not so much as a call to action that we are looking for here. This is one of the reasons that I requested to join the Order of the Dragon, not to mention its historical ties to Orthodoxy and areas in Eastern Europe that are continuing to struggle with the encroachment of Islam into what has traditionally Christian lands.
If we are looking to be a service organization we need to focus on our church and taking care of her. We should be part of the Alter Servers, Readers, Sub-Deacons, Deacons, or even higher clergy. We should all be active members in our parishes and provide that male leadership that is so desperately needed in a world that seems to becoming more and more anti-masculinity.
We have to show the world around us that men are born leaders and that we care for our communities and families in ways that may not be the same as women, but we respect and cherish them. Not only that, we are here to protect those things that we hold dear and to fight for our faith and family. These are not only strong feelings I have as a husband, father, and brother, but I'm sure that all of you share the same as well.
What we may be missing i'm afraid is an authentic example of what it means to live in an Orthodox Christian society, one that is church centered, Christ centered. While the Russian Empire shows us as an example of what a society could be, I think that being from the west we may have some different ideals and that we will not be able to have control in the same way. Without a genuine example of a traditional society to go off of, we may have a hard time developing one that will fit what we are looking to accomplish.
Brother Basil,
You make some good points, and raise an essential problem about the existence of effective orders a plenty under the Pope and other hostile religions but, despite a real&celebrated legacy in Orthodoxy, such orders have been allowed to wither into ceremonial awards&empty titles in the modern diaspora.But heterodox have Jesuits, Knights of Columbus, Opus Dei, Knights of Malta, B'nai Brith, Alliance Israelite Universelle, the various ramifications of Freemasonry and atheist socialism, the Matachine Society, GLAD, NOW, and many others.
But some exist and are either growing. I guess you must be unaware of the Knights& Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre, Brotherhood of St Job of Pochaev, the Cossacks (USA&of course Russian&Ukrainian), the Union of Orthodox Banner-Bearers, the Union of the Russian People, Union of Orthodox Church-Builders, The Brotherhood of Russian truth, and many others in the Slavic homelands&diasporas. There have been& are Greek ones too.And many of these are mostly laity with some likeminded civil and ecclesiastical officials too who look on them as necessary auxilliaries for promoting a strong Orthodox community. But most of these at first were considered suspicious by the civil and church authorities but accepted and embraced later as they grew& the need for their help arose and mutual trust solidified. Again, as you say, there is a long tradition back to Byzantium and the Bible in sacred lay associations for the defense and aid of suffering orthodox people. We need mutual support with good clergy but some things clergy could not do and brotherhoods of various kinds did in lineh the Word and the Fathers exhortations. Many people don't know these because Orthodox education has been interrupted and hindered by persecutions, wars, and essentially antichristian subversive propaganda forced on us from early youth by non-Orthodox powers for their benefit. So I would recommend as a first example you study the Cossacks polity model which was autonomous& in a non-Orthodox Polish-Lithuanian Republic largelySt hostile to Orthodox rulers& homelands and laws. They were initially organized and blessed by the fervently orthodox monasteries (Lvov/Kiev Dormition&Mezhirsk Transfiguration brotherhoods, whom the Patriarchs established as need Orthodox seminaries) and brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre headed by Patriarch Theophanes of Jerusalem. Some food for thought and prayerful study.
In Christ,
Ian(John Damascene)
Thank you gentlemen for great ideas. I wasn't aware we had so many fraternities before, I knew of a few but not all.
The difference here is that the aim is to be Local while being connected Globally, and actually using the internet in a profitable way.
Right now everyone is isolated in the real world only complaining about the world online, we reverse all this by connecting online and meeting in the real world and actually work towards change. So something unique for our internet age and our post-modern world we all find ourselves in.
Please continue to wonderful input and ideas.
God bless
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cossack+history&view=detail&mid=B93D53BC6FF66FA97B81B93D53BC6FF66FA97B81&FORM=VRRTAP&vrvid=B93D53BC6FF66FA97B81B93D53BC6FF66FA97B81%3b3BAB0CF4F15E4E879B183BAB0CF4F15E4E879B18%3b8DDD8BE14E39F040CBA88DDD8BE14E39F040CBA8%3bAAE2E999A408B22BA98DAAE2E999A408B22BA98D%3bBBC2859C1825CCDCAFA1BBC2859C1825CCDCAFA1
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cossack+history&view=detail&mid=2F266FB3ABB1550DF3682F266FB3ABB1550DF368&FORM=VRRTAP&vrvid=2F266FB3ABB1550DF3682F266FB3ABB1550DF368%3b774F93A25BA9B37D5730774F93A25BA9B37D5730%3b3FC4435A2D95C5F641103FC4435A2D95C5F64110%3b13ACC974C046BB096B2013ACC974C046BB096B20%3b9F49463F50B1D7F018229F49463F50B1D7F01822
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cossack+history&view=detail&mid=C1FDA8A4201918EE443EC1FDA8A4201918EE443E&FORM=VRRTAP&vrvid=C1FDA8A4201918EE443EC1FDA8A4201918EE443E%3b2F266FB3ABB1550DF3682F266FB3ABB1550DF368%3b774F93A25BA9B37D5730774F93A25BA9B37D5730%3b3FC4435A2D95C5F641103FC4435A2D95C5F64110%3b13ACC974C046BB096B2013ACC974C046BB096B20
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cossack+history&view=detail&mid=ABD47F42ED7E763B925CABD47F42ED7E763B925C&FORM=VRRTAP&vrvid=ABD47F42ED7E763B925CABD47F42ED7E763B925C%3b6A8EBA4FC233922599BF6A8EBA4FC233922599BF%3b34A632F9C3AB76B04ABE34A632F9C3AB76B04ABE%3bD299EF303939CEDC69E9D299EF303939CEDC69E9%3b920497BDE957BC79E858920497BDE957BC79E858
http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1517516190
http://vestnikkavkaza.net/photogallery/Assumption-oath-of-Cossack.html
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=5ZMG_Zv8JT0
https://m.dw.com/en/russia-cossacks-comeback/av-16895225
We should look for ways to hire and support our fellow Orthodox brothers who are a part of this project. I think that this could be a great way to use the power of the Internet in a positive manner. I'm like a lot of folks in that I rely on the Internet to make a living and to support the work that I do. If given the opportunity, I would love to work for someone doing work that I'm familiar with for a fellow Orthodox Christian. I have worked for members of my own Parish, and I found that it was both rewarding in the I received pay from them, but also that I could be proud of my work because I was doing it for someone that was close to me and we shared the same faith.
Looking at all of these different groups that some of us have shared, I find that some of them go back for years or were a regular part of the culture in which they are reemerging from again. With this in mind, maybe some form of "guilds" or "unions" should be created as part of the Brotherhood Project? This would be a way for those with a similar background to connect and start building relationships. Working in technology, there are a lot of different folks that I would love to chat with and that I know I could work for.
I would go so far as to suggest maybe having a job board as part of this site in which members are able to post jobs that they are hiring for. (I believe there are job boards that are focused on Orthodox jobs, but the sad thing is that they are only for churches and don't end up paying very much). Also, if you are able to do remote work (technology) or if you need someone to help in consulting on specific topics or specialty areas, use the board to post those roles.
What are some other thoughts? Do you have a better idea that we should consider?